This is a collection of recent messages on the MMML about MIDI guitars. ========================================================================= Subject: MIDI Guitarists and Expansion I've begun a reference list of known MMML MIDI guitarists. Any others wish to come out of the closet? Bill Fox Roland GM70 Naim Mowatt Roland GM70 (Did I spell your name OK?) Ed Stremler Casio PG380 Ed's last posting included: > I am interested in purchasing other modules for it. If anyone > can give me some imformation on what to get, where do I start, > I would appreciate it. Module expansion is fun... once you make a decision what to buy. Last night I picked up a Roland D110 ($399 before state tax) and was pleased that one of its "patches" (I'm not used to the terminology Roland uses on this beastie, yet.) is designed for use with a GM70 as the controller! Also, the eight demo songs are pretty cool. I digress. First off, Ed, decide what you want to do and figure out what capabilities are required to acheive your goals. Price, multitimbral ability, polyphony of notes, number and types of outputs, type of technology (sampling or synthesis), and style of synthesis, (L/A, S/A, FM, sampling, analog, PD, PCM, etc.) can all be factors to investigate. Don't forget to include factors of use; road worthyness, rack mountable, studio use only, ... Or you could just go down to the local dealer and listen to which keyboards sound cool and then ask if there is a rack version. Happy hunting! Bill Fox cbema!wbf #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### From: mvgpl!mvcrg (Christopher R Gayle +1 508 960 2904) Subject: guitar I play guitar, but have yet to play a guitar MIDI controller, so I guess I don't fit Bill Fox's list exactly... but I imagine I'm not alone in as much as I'm very interested in what the guitar/MIDIists have to say about their rigs and results. I mean, some day I might be able to acquire such a set up, and I'd like to have real people's opinions to refer to (as opposed to magazine reviews which seem to love everything they review). Meanwhile, I'll "keep on trashin'!" - Topher Gayle x2904 mvcrg@mvgpl.att.com Subject: MIDI Guitar List Hi Topher, Seeing that I'm such a great guy, I'll add you to my list, leaving the equipment column blank until you provide the information as to what it should contain. Actually, it's nothing official or high falootin'. The list is merely for personal reference. Truth be known, I still use my AMS (Ancient Mirage Sampler) as the controller when sequencing. Maybe I'm trying to increase my keyboard skills. It does seem more natural for entering drums than from my guitar. I can really pound dem keys! So far, I use guitar to control strings on "Coming Around Again" and since they're on MIDI channel 2, I have the GM70 set to poly mode so that it transmits on only one channel. In mono mode, each string would transmit on individual channels, gobble, gobble. Actually, since 2 through 7 are free, I could probably use mono mode and get better response. Just set up 3 through 7 with the same (S550 sampler) patch as on 2! Bill Fox cbema!wbf #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From lzatt!abcoak!ttnjm Thu Oct 11 11:10 EDT 1990 I'm glad to see other midi guitarists in this group. I'm also glad that there are others with the GM-70 controller. I almost gave up on it for performance until I saw the Ripingtons in concert. Most of the parts which I originally thought were keyboard parts were done by the guitarist - Russ Freeman. When I saw that he was using the GM-70, I wanted to try it again. At this point, I use synth sounds on about 60% of the night's repetoire. Assuming that you can tweak all the adjustments just right the tracking is pretty good for non-solo parts of the repetoire. The degree of glitching depends also on what module you are triggering. I'm using a Roland U-220 where I can set velocity and note ranges for each voice - this helps a bit. The main weapon against glitching, however, is my "Mapper" which is a midi processor that can do quite a number of amazing things. One trick is to program it so that it only allows specific notes to trigger the synth. This way if I misfinger the fretboard the worse that happens is "no synth sound". I still don't use any sequences in performances. For a quartet doing the type of jazz that we are there are still a few hurdles to overcome. =========== The Casio controllers are very interesting. There are two different ones - one with built-in sounds and one without. I don't know which one yours is (Ed Stremler) but I'd like to know more about it and how you intend to use it. I've played it just as a guitar and I like it. I've never triggered any module with it. Without knowing to much about the myriad of sound modules out there I would recommend the Roland modules. I've tried Roland, Yamaha, and Kurzwiel modules and the Roland seem to be the best as far as compatibility with guitar controllers. This is not surprising since they've been into gsynths for a while. I think before you buy a sound module you should pin down how you are going to use the system. Performance has different criteria than studio work. ========== Are there any midi guitarist who have checked out Warren Sirota's new publication for midi guitarists?? What's it like? I haven't gotten round to writing for it. -- Naim Mowatt -- #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### From: ixstar!ixxsm!rrm (55613-McTee) Subject: Guitar & MIDI Bill, Add me to your list of MIDI guitarists. The last few years I have been more a keyboard player (much more in fact, judging by how much keyboard gear I lug around to gigs!), but I have a GM-70 and use it on several songs in our set list. I have been on the MIDI mailing list for two and half years now, but I haven't had the time to contribute much input. I will be getting out of the band scene in the next few months, so I will finally be able to "get to know" my setup better and hopefully play around with the GM-70 much more. I have used it quite a bit with my D-50 and DX7 but I really haven't done to much with my Proteus/1 yet; I think that will turn out to be a pretty hot combination. Thanks, Rick McTee ixstar!rrm Subject: More MIDI Guitar Stuff Not to overload the MMML with the same topic all day long, but... the piano sound on "Devil Sky, Angel Moon" which appeared on MMML Tape #1 was controlled from my guitar. (You can even hear some note and timing errors due to the technology and my lack of technique!) Bill Fox cbema!wbf P. S. Just as I was about to mail this, mail arrived from Topher. I'll answer it tomorrow, but briefly, yes, I'll save up stuff for a while, then send it to Tim for the archives. From: mvgpl!mvcrg (Christopher R Gayle +1 508 960 2904) To: cbema!wbf Subject: guitar/MIDI stuff Bill Maybe you could save all the guitar/MIDI related stuff that comes through the pipeline, and then save it to a special guitar archive file?!? That way, when the grand day arrives (likely in a couple years for me, but hopefully I'd not be the only benefactor) for someone to buy a piece of gear, there's a nice opinionated file waiting for the download! I've been saving a couple of the more immediately interedting files already, but would trash them if a file such as that were to be collected. (This would please the systems admins, I expect.) How much does a used controller cost anyway? do they make any that can just be clamped onto a real guitar? What are these tracking problems? Can the controllers handle chords? Is fingerpicking a problem? Bent notes & vibrato? pull-offs and hammer-ons? I guess I oughta just stop by a music store and look rich so they'll cart out all the gear for me and let me fool around with it. - Topher Gayle x2904 mvcrg@mvgpl.att.com #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From hopd4!es Thu Oct 11 14:48 EDT 1990 Fellow midi guitarists, I presently have the Casio PG380 in which the electronics are built on board in the guitar. It has 64 preset sounds and you can purchase an external ram card in which you get an additional 128 sounds. I don't have that yet. The guitar also has an external midi port in which your guitar can act as a controller. It tracks superbly, and I am totally in love with it. I think you can pick one up at Sam Ash music for like $799, if I'm not mistaken. Can someone tell me more about the Roland GM-70. It uses a Gk1 pickup? How does this relate to the Roland GR-50 which uses the GK-2 midi interface? I tried the GR-50 a couple times and I was real impressed with it. I don't know anything about the GM-70. How much does it cost?? I guess it has to be pretty hot to be a major part of the Rippington's sound. Anyone have a Yamaha G10. What a joke!!! I can't believe that use to be $2K. I think you can pick one up now for about $400. My main turn off about this controller is that every string is a gauge .012 string. It felt terrible. Well gotta run, so for any of you other guitarists who haven't responded yet, Please share some of your thoughts and ideas with us. Cio Ed Stremler hopd4!es Naim: Possibility that I might check out your band this weekend, But please give some other dates that you are playing. #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From att!NeXT.COM!Rick_McGowan Thu Oct 11 13:11:15 PDT 1990 Subject: closet guitarists? How come "Rockin' Ricky" Hamilton hasn't reared his head in this guitarist discussion? :-) #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From att!CSI.CompuServe.COM!M.DICKSON Thu Oct 11 16:11:34 1990 Subject: MIDI Guitarists and Expansion Ok, I'll admit it. I can't say I am a midi-guitarist yet as I haven't plunked down the cash for a controller, but I am a guitar synthesist. I bought and still have an Arp AVATAR when they first came out. Yes, folks, this is the synth that sent Arp belly up. Not much for an instrument (monophonic, CV only no midi, tracking is ok if you change strings alot and play VERY cleanly, etc). I LOVE synth music. I also LOVE the expression you can get from a guitar. I promised myself I wouldn't spend more denaros on guitar/synth stuff. That may be soon. Mike Dickson m.dickson@csi.compuserve.com #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From attunix!hamilton Thu Oct 11 21:12 EDT 1990 Subject: Re: closet guitarists? Senor McGowan, Rockin' Rick has had the boogie woogie flu for the last day and has only now been able to pound the keyboard with enough energy to type his password. More to the point, I do not have a midi guitar, but have tried a few out. In particular, I tried the two Casios, one at Tim's picnic (the one with a synth built in), and the cheaper model at Sam Ash. Does anyone know if the midi pickup and interface is the same between these two? The one I tried at Tim's tracked very nicely, the one at Sam Ash was pretty lame. I don't know if the difference is an intrinsic difference between the two, or if the one at Sam Ash was either badly set up or broken. Any info would be nice, because the one I tried at Sam Ash was reasonably priced and a pretty nice guitar as well. RR Subject: guitar/MIDI stuff > From: mvgpl!mvcrg (Christopher R Gayle +1 508 960 2904) > - Topher Gayle x2904 mvcrg@mvgpl.att.com > How much does a used controller cost anyway? Using a general rule of thumb of 1/2 to 2/3 the purchase price of a new device, I'd estimate a GK1/GM70 combination to go for $300 to $400 used. > do they make any that can just be clamped onto a real guitar? The GK1 gets screwed onto your favorite guitar so you'll be comfortable playing it. > What are these tracking problems? Physics! It takes longer to figure out a lower frequency than a higher one due to longer wavelengths. The pitch must be definite to be correctly detected. Your average guitar playing technique must be modified for your setup and the synth and even the current patch being played! > Can the controllers handle chords? Is fingerpicking a problem? > Bent notes & vibrato? pull-offs and hammer-ons? Chords are no problem, especially in mono mode where each string's note is transmitted on separate MIDI channels. Finger picking must be clean but can be done. Bent notes and vibrato can be handled by pitch wheel messages and the GM70 does this well... with proper setup of it and the synth it controls. Pull-offs and hammer-ons aren't clean enough guitar techniques to ensure glitch-free operation. Any other MIDI and/or synth guitarists have opinions on this? Bill Fox cbema!wbf Subject: MIDI Guitar > From hopd4!es Thu Oct 11 14:48 EDT 1990 > Ed Stremler hopd4!es > Can someone tell me more about the Roland GM-70. It uses a Gk1 > pickup? How does this relate to the Roland GR-50 which uses the > GK-2 midi interface? *************************************************************************** The first statement may be inaccurate as seen in a following message. *************************************************************************** To the best of my knowledge, the GK1 can only be used with the GM70 and the GK2 only with the GR50. The GK2 has different/more controls on it than the GK1. The GR50 is supposed to respond faster than a synth driven by a GM70 because the GK2's output goes directly into the GR50's internal L/A synth's guts which eliminates the delay of first converting the signals into MIDI commands. An externally driven synth suffers the same conversion-to-MIDI delay exhibited by the GM70. This is all remembered from when the GR50 was introduced at the January 1989 NAMM. (I was getting a personal demo from the Roland guitar product specialist [what's his name?] when Roy Orbison joined me, much to the delight of the product specialist!) > I don't know anything about the GM-70. How much does it cost?? I think I paid $625 for the GK1/GM70 which included installation at Sodja Music in Mayfield Heights, Ohio (eastern Cleveland suburb). This was maybe two and a half years ago. Bill Fox cbema!wbf #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From hopd4!es Fri Oct 12 11:41 EDT 1990 Fellow midi guitarists, I get the impression that with the Roland GM70 you have to alter your playing style quite a bit. With the Casio Pg380, or the Roland GR50 the tracking is real good, and accepts your style of playing. You can play real fast You should still be aware of your picking. Ed stremler hopd4!es #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### From: allegra!lacy (Jack Lacy) Subject: Re: MIDI Guitar the gk1 and gk2 can both be used with the gr50....you need an adapter for the gk1 tho...i have (or am using) a gr50...really nice especially if you mount the gk2 on a strat-style guitar...you have to mount the pickup close to the bridge in order for bending to work...lots of fun! jack lacy allegra!lacy #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From lzatt!abcoak!ttnjm Mon Oct 15 10:44 EDT 1990 Hi Fellow MIDI GUITARISTS: I've been away a couple of days, but I was glad to see all the mail on midi guitar. I have a few questions for Ed Stremler or anyone that knows about the Casio PG380. Along with each questions are answers as they apply to the GM70 and the GR50. I hope these questions begin to provide criteria for comparing different controllers. I may get flailed for this but I don't think that tracking should be used as a comparison criteria. This is something that I feel strongly on but I'll talk more about that in a later mailing. Onto the questions: 1- Can it operate in mono mode as well as poly? (GM70/GR50 can do either or both at the same time w/ limitation) 2- When in mono mode, can two different strings transmit the same channel? (GM70/GR50 cannot do this) 3- In either mode, can individual strings be turned off or transposed? (GM70/GR50 yes for both) 4- How much transposition? Any step limitations? (GM70/GR50 can do +/- 24 in half step increments) 5- Can I program the amount of pitch bend sent from the guitar? (GM70/GR50 Yes, up to 2 octaves) 6- Can I program the PG380 with particular setups which I can recall on a song-by-song basis? (GM70/GR50 Yes, 128 of them) 7- Is it a equipt with a MIDI-IN port to recall these setups? (GM70/GR50 Yes) 8- How is velocity information fine tuned? (GM70/GR50 has 5 velocity curves it can operate with - each patch has its own curve) 9- Are there any general purpose continuous or switch type controllers directly on the guitar? (GM70 has two switchs and one continuous on the main box. The GK1 has two continuous controllers) 10- Can the on-board or card sound be edited in any way? (GM70 is only a controller so has no internal sound. GR50 is essentially a scaled down GM70 packaged w a D-110 any sound made for a D-110 is good for a GR50) 11- Can different notes on particular strings be turned on or off? (GM70/GR50 No, but there is a way to do this) Thanks in advance for the information you can provide. I'd like to check out the PG380 more closely. If it can work in my setup I would enjoy freeing up a much need rack slot occupied by the GM70. -- Naim Mowatt -- #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From lzatt!abcoak!ttnjm Mon Oct 15 17:12 EDT 1990 HELLO AGAIN MIDI GUITARISTS: Now that we've the discussed the merits and demerits of the various controllers we all have (no one in this group seems to have any of the dedicated controllers - quantar, synthaxe, G10, etc) I'd like to know how each of us uses our controller and how we set up our systems for that use. As far as I can tell, Bill Fox & I seem to be the only ones using G-synth in performances. This is probably the most demanding and critical use in that glitches and other mistakes are very obvious to all. In the other applications, there is the freedom to "do it again" or "edit out the mistakes". Because of this and also because this is where the bulk of my experience is, I always tend to have a performance perspective beleiving that will cover everything else as well. To start out, I'd like to discuss the reason why so many potential midi guitarist give up because the technology does not provide tracking that is "precisely, 100% perfect, everytime, for any technique". To my mind, this is ridiculous in that what these people want is a guitar to play like a guitar but sound like a string section or bells. I get a very funny picture in my head imagining a cello player bowing the instrument and wanting it to sound like a snare drum or tablas. I'm not sure if I'm making my point clear enough. If you want something that plays exactly like a guitar - play a guitar. I think even the best hammond organ players would have to change what their fingers do when they play there favorite pieces on a piano. As long as the tracking on a controller is "okay" then we can do some pretty interesting things with it. As a matter of fact, the tracking is only critical for dedicated controllers which have no guitar sound - here we have to pretend we are playing guitar and need precise tracking. When we play organ patches on our sound module through our guitars - we are not playing guitar - we are playing the organ patch and tracking can usually be adjusted on our controllers to be sufficient for this. Flexibility in use is how we should judge a controller. This is where most of the differences lie. -- Naim Mowatt -- Subject: MIDI Map Your MIDI Guitar In the same issue as the Keynote review, check out page 35 in the Opcode Vision clinic article. It mentions limiting the note range triggerable by each string. You don't even need Vision to do it, either! TX81Z patches allow note range specifications on each sound. I'm sure MIDI patchers / processors and other synths and samplers allow this, too. I don't remember if the GM70 can do this but it seems like it should. I'll have to check the manual when I get home tonight. The same sidebar also mentions the high strung guitar and how it can be implemented electronically for MIDI guitarists. I've kept my first steel string guitar in this "high strung" condition for years, although I use the upper half of a 12 string set which also raises the G string an octave as well as the E, A, and D as mentioned in the magazine. Also, one of the first patches I ever made on my GM70 used the pitch transposition feature to create an open E tuning. (A raised to B, D raised to E, and G raised to G#.) Bill Fox #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From lzatt!abcoak!ttnjm Wed Oct 17 15:30 EDT 1990 Subject: layers and splits using MIDI guitar The GM70 does not have any mechanism to restrict notes on the same string. All it can do is turn a string on or off in its entirety. As bill points out most of this type of restiction comes from the sound module. Most mutli-timbral modules have the note range feature. In parts of the repetoire for the WATERLINES band, I have some notes on a string triggering one sound while others on the same string trigger another or none at all. When the note ranges are contiguous, you can do this completely by programming an appropriate patch at the module. When these notes are not contiguous, I have to program my "Mapper" (Great box!) to do this. The amount of layering and splitting that can be done by a variety of means rivals some of the best keyboard controllers available. Question for Bill: In your Gm70 patch which emulates a high strung guitar, how do you work the sound of the guitar and the synth together or do you? Do you use this as a "synth only" patch? Subject 1: D110 Editor/Librarian To Keith Anderson: If I send a 5.25" floppy, will you load it with your executable version(s) of glib and send it back? Mucho merci! Subject 2: GM70 Patch Naim writes: > Question for Bill: > In your Gm70 patch which emulates a high strung guitar, > how do you work the sound of the guitar and the synth together or do you? > Do you use this as a "synth only" patch? My GM70 patch was for an open E tuning (E B E G# B E). The idea was to be able to use an open tuning without having to retune the guitar. (You know how long that takes by ear with a loud crowd and the other band members noodling around between numbers.) Therefore, it is a synth only patch. I turn the balance knob on the GK1 100% clockwise. Subject 3: Alternate Tunings for Guitar Marcus Prickett writes: > Greetings, your MMML posting about E open tuning caught my attention. I'm > interested in playing around with some alternate tunings, do you have (or > could you make) a list of the tunings that you have used or know about. I'd > be interested in any and all information and pointers that you could give. Normal...............E A D G B E Open E Chord.........E B E G# B E Open D Chord.........D A D F# A D Common D Tuning......D A D G B D Modified D...........D A D A B E Modified Normal......E A D A B E I came up with the last two. You run the risk of popping the G string with them, so you might want to transpose them down a whole step. There are loads of others I'm sure. I used to know the tuning for David Crosby's "Guinevere" but have forgotten it. It might be possible to pick it off the record because he might strum all the strings open at least once. Bill Fox cbema!wbf #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From hopd4!es Fri Oct 19 10:08 EDT 1990 Bill Fox, > My GM70 patch was for an open E tuning (E B E G# B E). The idea was to be > able to use an open tuning without having to retune the guitar. I bet you that Micheal Hedges would get a kick out of this!!! Ed Stremler hopd4!es #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From ulysses!mlw Fri Oct 19 10:36:28 EDT 1990 To: twitch!midi Subject: Infra-Red Midi Controller Hello out there! I'm looking for an infra-red midi controller. Is there such a beast? Thanks. mlw #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From ulysses!mlw Fri Oct 19 13:04:41 EDT 1990 Subject: Infra-Red Midi controller Does anyone know of an infra-red midi controller? Thanks, Melanie West ulysses!mlw Subject: Infra-Red Midi Controller To mlw: Doesn't the Zeta guitar controller used infrared in combination with sensing the frets? Bill Fox #### Forwarded from the Mostly MIDI mailing list (twitch!midi) #### >From lzatt!abcoak!ttnjm Mon Oct 22 11:34 EDT 1990 Subject: infra-red guitar controllers To my recollection there are only a few midi guitar controllers which use infra red as part of their technology. The zeta mirror 6 might be one. There is also the older photon controller which I thought was real flexible. Quantar made a controller-only model called the Beetle which used infra red but I don't think there was a a pitch-to-midi version. A German company called SHADOW started out making pitch-to-midi conversion units and got into wired frets (infra-red??) before they folded. Steve Morse use to use thier stuff. Now he uses the Pitchrider unit. SUBJECT: Midi-guitar setup of established performers I went to see Steve Morse this past weekend and watch how he used his synth units. I couldn't tell what he was driving, but he used the Pitchrider IV unit from an old SHADOW pickup which he installed in his guitar. Most of his sounds were of the slow attack variety which he used to enhance his slower chord playing. There were also a couple of organ type sounds put in to drive the audience to a frenzy. His use of synths is very straight forward. He only uses 4 or five sounds, no layer, splits, transpositions. A complete all or nothing approach and he does not use it a lot, but when he does it was effective. To Ed S. I'm still curious about your PG380. If you get a chance can you post the answers to some of the questions I asked last week about it? If you need me to repost them let me know.